You say Jesus was a mystic… you can describe him as anything you like Taz.
I (and CS Lewis ) would contend that your description does not fit Jesus’s own
description of himself. The Jews of the day most certainly agreed, they asked for
his crucifixion because of his claim to be the same “I Am” who spoke with Moses.

I still maintain that Mohommad and the Koran preach violence, and their history
is consistent with it. I find it curious and notable that there are very few voices in
the moderate Islam who will speak out against the violence.

I think you would agree that describing violence and promoting violence are two
different things. I think you are being a bit to general in your assertions. The
greater context of the Old Testament is to lay the foundation that God is Holy and
man has a sin nature. A holy God cannot tolerate sin. God, in the case of Moses,
punished hin for taking the life of the Egyption by keeping him from entering
the Promised Land. God also revealed His intolerance for sin and prescribed
violent solutions to deal with it.

I explained my decision on Christ as well as possible above Taz. I reread it and it
appears to logically address your question however let me try and put it this way:

I maintain that Christianity is the only belief system where the path to salvation,
the redemption for sin is provided by God Himself, the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.
You cannot work your way to heaven, it is by faith in Christ alone. All other religions are
works based. From a logical standpoint you have to accept this premise before
we can go on…..

If you accept the premise, then you have broken it down to two logical choices.
the story of Christ is true, or the story is false. If the story is true, then all other works
based religions are eliminated by their conflict with the words of Christ. If it is false,
then you are still left to decide amongst the works based religions as to which is true.

Taz, my investigation of the Biblical account supported the premise. I came to the conclusion
also that the evidence supported that it (the story of His life and death) was a historical event.
So I have now established that Christ is God….. Using logic, I know have an objective
standard in which to judge all other belief systems, don’t I?

Your comments on prophesy I disagree with. Nothing has been more thoroughly studied
throughout history and while the meaning or descriptions can be debated in a particular verse,
the veracity can be substantiated. One can use the existance of the State of Israel as an example.
Until 1947, most Christians believed that the Bible must be referring to a spiritual “Israel”
because the Jewish people were widely scattered and no one could fathom a return to
Palestine and the rebirth of Israel as a nation and homeland. When this happened, it
became clear that the prophesy considering Israel in the “latter days” was to be taken literally.

Speaking of Israel, for relevance to the modern day, I suggest you look closely at the nation of
Israel in light of prophesy and God’s promises to the “Chosen”. The stage is being set for
Christ’s return by the events that are happening over there. Beware of those who
“curse” Israel….. In Genesis 12:3, God said to Abraham, I will bless them that
bless you, and curse him that curses you, and in you shall all the families of the earth
be blessed.

I find your basis for belief very flimsy Dail. The argument from Prophecy and Miracles
is not exclusive to Christianity. Islam and other faiths have their set of prophecies and
miracles. If you are truly intellectually honest, you will appreciate this point.

Best,
Taz

Thanks for your thoughts. To me Christ is the MYSTIC (none of CS Lewis’s category).

I totally agree with you with the historical and current violent nature of Islam and
I agree with you that there are many verses in the Koran advocating intolerance
and hatred. But you may not know verses that endorse peace as well. Some
examples (forgive me I dont remember the exact verse/chapter references off the
top of my head):

“the servants of the Most Gracious (God) are those who tread the earth GENTLY
and when the mischief makers address them, they say PEACE”

“Any one who kills an innocent life, it is as if he has killed the whole of humanity”

And there are many more. Ultimately it all depends on translation and interpretation.
But I agree with you for the most part when it comes to Islam’s history. But the
Old Testament is full of similar hatred and bloody massacres and so your Bible
is not free from sin as well.

You are not addressing my questions to you Dail. All the reasons you use to believe
in Christ are similar and no different from those used by people of other faiths to believe in their
religions and their prophetic or divine figureheads. Can’t you really say that?

I am sorry but you have still not convinced me Dail.

Best,
Taz

I said in my email that I first proved to myself that the account of Christ
was accurate based on the historical evidence. I then used logic to discount the
other religions ie; Christ is true – therefore any contradiction is false.

I’m not saying you have to accept the premise to agree with my logic.

While the Christ argument is my primary one, I find it curious why even a
peace loving agnostic can not reject Islam. How many beheadings, stonings,
and honor killings does it take before one recognizes it is insidiously evil?
While I recognize that their are many Muslims who choose to live peacefully,
you do not have to study too much of the Koran before you recognize that being
peaceful does not make an obedient Muslim…

One of the principle tenets’ of the Judeo-Christian faiths is the notion that God
has given every man a free will and the freedom to choose. It is therefore
incumbent that the Christian respects those who choose not to believe or be
obedient to scripture. In Islamic countries you cannot proselytize other religions.
You cannot even bring a bible into some even for personal use. I recently
went to a Saudi Arabian State website that was promoting tourism, the explicitly
said “no jews please” .

Again, I would describe my verdict through thorough investigation. I’m convinced
folks seek religion for many reasons. The Bible says that not all will believe, in fact it
says that the majority will not. Of the thousands of people crucified by the Romans, I’ll
bet you know the name of only one. Considering the Bible, claims of fulfilled prophesy,
and the historical evidence both Biblical and secular, why would a truth seeker not
first start with the person of Christ?
Can you really put Mohammad, Buddha or any other religious leader in the same
category as Christ? None of their lives were so prophesied and with 100% accuracy.
None of them died while claiming to that it would be for the payment of all sin. None
Certainly none have risen from the dead.
You, like many others may discount his miracles as fairy tales (I did), but the list is long
of those who set out with that goal and came to belief instead.

How about you Taz?
I have no skin in this game when it comes to convincing you,
I’m compelled by what I believe, and to not share it considering what I know to be
the consequences would betray that conviction.
Let’s agree on one thing, Christ left zero latitude with regard to his Lordship.
CS Lewis said it best, “you have three options with regard to Christ, He is either a liar,
a Lunatic, or the Creator of the Universe.” Everything else is a simply a person molding him
into what makes them feel comfortable.

A universal religion may on the surface be appealing, but it is a logical fallacy.
Who is Christ to you Taz, the liar, the lunatic, or the Creator?

I never suggested that to be a critical thinker one has to come to my conclusion
(agnosticism) or to be an atheist. I respect and applaud your journey to find the
“Truth”.

However, statistically speaking most people who are born in a particular faith tend
to remain in that faith and defend their faith with the same certitude and sincerity
as you do.

You mentioned about “the historical evidence of Christ’s life, death and
resurrection”. But then what about the “historical evidence” of Muhammad’s
life and miracles which countless of Muslim and non Muslim seekers
have seeked, just like you, but have come to profoundly different conclusions
from yours?

What about the “historical evidence” of Krishna’s life and his message and his
miracles, which many seekers of truth, like yourself, have come
to embrace? How about those of the remaining countless of worldwide religions
known and unknown?

All seekers of truth, just like you, but all having reached different conclusions
from yours with the same certitude and reasoning as yours. Don’t you find
that funny?

Please understand, I am not mocking at your faith but just raising some valid
questions that every seeker of truth must confront. You have not provided any
objective evidence for preferring Christianity over the rest of the World Religions.

Best,
Taz

I find it curious how often people make the assertion that a person adopts
the same beliefs of their parents. This basically makes us all like robots, doesn’t it?
One wouldn’t have to dig very deep to find countless examples of those who came
a given faith by their own thought processes. Isn’t it a bit arrogant to claim that
only people who hold your views came upon them by critical thinking and the rest
are just programmed to hold theirs??

I maintain that I have reached my conclusions about the veracity of Scripture (the Bible)
and the authenticity of the life of Christ as recorded in it, by logic and sound critical
thinking. I believe my views are therefore defensible. I just don’t “prefer one
over another”.

It is a logical problem as well in that

Thanks for your thoughts. I get clearly what you are saying.

But tell me, how do you decide which is the objective scripture that is God’s
word as there are quite a lot of them out there. If you talk about sincerity in seeking God’s word
then there are countless of Muslims and Jews who sincerely seek God the way you do
but they are totally convinced God’s grace to be in their religions and scriptures just like
you do for Christianity and the New testament. Don’t you find that a wee bit
funny?

If you were born a Muslim you would be saying the same thing for Islam as you
are currently saying for Christianity. If we dig in to history, then there is no reason
to prefer Jesus over Muhammed or, Jesus over Krishna.

Unless you are willing to say that there is some sort of universal
spirituality that everyone has access to in their own ways, and
that it doesn’t matter if you connect with God through the Koran, the Gita, the
Upanishad or the Bible, you have no objective basis to prefer one form of
spirituality and religion over another.

Best,
Taz

I didn’t say that “we” all make absolute criteria.

My point is that there MUST be an absolute standard in which to make
moral judgments. What we think or what we decide has no bearing on
what in reality is actually true.

Your second paragraph is only true if Judaism, Christianity and Islam were
not in conflict with each other and could coexist in the same world. The
problem is they cannot, they are mutually exclusive. Therefore a person has
only the option of rejecting them all, or finding one to be true. The second option
would allow for an objective standard.

In your third paragraph I believe you have simply chosen the easy way out.
God desires to be known by His creation. The bible says that those who seek him,
will find him. I would take another look at the historical proof of the death and
resurrection of Christ. If that is true, then it renders every other path to God false.

God has given us all the freedom to choose, but he also provided the path of forgiveness
through the sacrifice of His son upon the cross. Clearly, sin is a problem for Him. If you
consider that He is holy than you can understand why.

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you in so far as we all make “absolute”
criteria for “good” and “bad” in our daily lives…even Deepak does that as well.
That is a healthy response of the human mind.

However, “good” and “evil” remain subjective elements in essence.
Killing animals for food is “okay” and “justified” in the Abrahamic
faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. But it is discouraged and
even abhored in religions of the East. There is no objective standard
other than the one we choose to make an objective standard.

There are many religions out there each claiming to be God’s
revealed word to Man and each claiming it has the path to salvation.
The diversity and contradictory phenomenon of such occurrence
leads me to be agnostic towards all of them.

However, everyone has the right to freedom of faith so everyone should
make their own judgement and choose their own path.

Best,
Taz

I am an agnostic. I was an X-muslim at one time and was an avid student of the Koran and
subsequently the Bible. I am reasonably exposed to Hinduism and Eastern Philosophy (of which I
am fan). I even was an atheist for 6 years. However, I still don’t subscribe to any belief system per
se.

I don’t think you guys will see eye to eye on this matter since the very notion of ‘God’ is very
different between Eastern Philosophy and the Abrahamic Faiths and everyone is speaking from
their “unquestionable” premise.

According to me, “Good” and “Bad” are relative terms but I also concede that we ALL (regardless
of our faiths or no faiths) use some sort of “absolute” “standard” in our daily lives, which I would say
to some degree is healthy. However I still admire the eastern view point of “Mindfulness” and
“Meditation” in terms of practical tools we can all use to make ourselves better individuals.

Best,
Taz

John Chapter 10, verses 30-36 (KJV)
10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you
from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee
not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest
thyself God.
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, (that’s you and me)
and the scripture cannot be broken;
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world,
Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The King James Version of the Bible has “the” in italics before “Son of God” in verse 36.
This is not for emphasis as some may think, but shows words interpolated by the
translators. In this case, they were mistaken. The original Greek does NOT have an
article before “Son of God,” which in Greek is equivalent to having an indefinite article.
In the original Greek of this scripture, Jesus did NOT say he is the Son of God; he said
I am a Son of God. Just as you are, and I am.

How can God be everything and everywhere yet separate from you?

Are you not some’thing’ and some’where’?

This use of the word “gods” to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word elohim is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28.

The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Verses 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, `You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” This passage is saying that God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people. They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority.

Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25-30). The unbelieving Jews respond by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6, reminding the Jews that the Law refers to mere men—albeit men of authority and prestige—as “gods.” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?

In contrast, we have the serpent’s lie to Eve in the Garden. His statement, “your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:5), was a half-truth. Their eyes were opened (verse 7), but they did not become like God. In fact, they lost authority, rather than gaining it. Satan deceived Eve about her ability to become like the one true God, and so led her into a lie. Jesus defended His claim to be the Son of God on biblical and semantic grounds—there is a sense in which influential men can be thought of as gods; therefore, the Messiah can rightly apply the term to Himself. Human beings are not “gods” or “little gods.” We are not God. God is God, and we who know Christ are His children.

He also said

“Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

Think on that for a bit.

Do you agree?

I suggest you visit http://www.oltiv.org to read the messages given by Our Blessed Mother in
1956 and the warnings she gave us then that are manifesting this very day.

After reading the testimonials and the evidence, I hope you will all use your own intellect to
come to the right conclusion before it is too late and the devil that Mr. Chopra insists does not
exist takes our world over entirely.

Life is a game and every game has rules. If you don’t play by the rules you loose the game. The Bible teaches the Ten Commandments. Religion says if you break the rules you offend God. Spirituality teaches Ten Universal Laws. Spirituality teaches if you break these Universal Laws “you’ suffer not God. Satan does not suffer when you break the laws either.

Spirituality teaches that when we(humans) think loving thoughts(Gods thoughts), we “behave lovingly” . When we think fearful thoughts(Satan’s thoughts). we “behave” badly. Love is an “action” means loving thought produces good behavior, love in humans. Hateful thoughts or fearful thoughts produces bad behavior in humans.

Each person is responsible for his/her own thinking and behavior is the purpose of “Free Will.”
Free will lets us know individually that we have a choice in how we respond in life or act. At the end of the day “you” are responsible for your own life through the choices “you” make. Hitler killed alot of people but he did not do it alone. There was not enough people with the moral fiber to stand up to him because they were “afraid” instead of choosing to think and do what God would think and do.

Fearful thoughts such as blaming, judging, analyzing, rationalizing and justifying pointing fingers cripples our capacity to act lovingly which is with compassion, forgiveness, sharing, kindness and giving. Fearful thoughts are our temptation to make mistakes, hurt each other and ourselves. Loving thought is the way we learn to correct ourselves. Jesus was a human just like us. He was tempted many times to think unloving but with the thoughts of God he overcame Satan. The purpose of the crucification of Jesus was to get us to pay attention to the resurrection. Meaning, we have a choice. No matter how much he suffered he rose above transended himself out of pain into peace with the “thoughts” of God. We only need to do the same. Forgiveness and acceptance are the keys to a peaceful life. They are the principles to having and sustaining “your” peace of
mind which is all any one person needs to give and receive love and create the world God intended we live in.
Changing your thoughts is the purpose of forgiveness. change your thinking, it changes your feelings, it changes your perspective, it changes your world from pain to peace. It works like this.

Whenever you are disturbed , feel conflicted in any way or being judgemental ask this of God or Jesus:
Make me a channel of your peace means help me to think and behave lovingly. My thoughts are in conflict or judged to be in conflict. We both love each other is the only truth. I ask for faith in the truth prevailing be restored to my thoughts. Have faith even in bewilderment means choose to restore your thoughts to peace. Overlook everything that seems to interfere with the truth and sane thinking. I have choosen the goal of God from which my true intention was never absent. I want to have peace of mind, love and happiness to share in my life with others. There is no problem anywhere that peace of mind will not resolve. Thank you Lord. Amen

What happens when we think fearfully?

You might have heard something similar to this story, and it might have been
portrayed in a recent movie….. Two soldiers at war on a battlefield. one of the soldiers
takes a hit from an artillary round that dismembers him. His wounds appear
immenently fatal, although in truth no one can be sure. He pleads with his fellow
soldier to take his life, to save him from the immense physical pain and trama of
what has just happened to him. His partner is faced with a terrible dilemma.
Compassion for his mates suffering is foremost on his mind, although his own
distress in watching him suffer is most certainly a factor. From my absolutist
viewpoint, that the taking of a life in this instance is not a decision for me to make.
And yet how can a loving God find fault in fulfilling his wish???
A tough one… What say you?

He clearly states not only in this passage but others that the path is a
“narrow” one.

Mieke, it is common for people to try and find common ground with all
religions and to also say that their are many paths to God. Any honest
appraisal of Christ’s ministry and teachings would conclude that he
did not leave that option open. Over and over he maintains that He is
the way of salvation. Unless you can remove Christ from history
either by discredit or otherwise, he makes it clear that He
will not share his throne with anyone or thing.

Thank you for your comment. You are in a stage of your life where intellectuality plays the
main part .

If you remember your childhood, perhaps you will remember that it was not the case in
that period of your life.

If you remember your adolescence, you will remember that you had whole other things
on your mind.

Life isa process, your process. There is only one you.

But life reveals us different insights in different stages of it.

One cannot comprehend all of it at once. And if one does, it is a moment
of enlightenment that will have to prove itself in the process, by experience. We are
created in such a way that we have a whole lifetime to grow into it.

In this stage of your life you need linear answers: it is either black or white.
There will come another stage in your life where you will discover the
relativity of it.

I do appreciate your view and I have read it with interest. My take on it differs
and that has something to do with my age and probably also with the
fact that I am a woman. It has to do with where I live, what education
I have received, etc. etc.

Perhaps there is not one way but as many ways as there are human beings.

And still our basic common ground is One: one life, one process.

Namasté

I wonder, what would Jesus do!?! Something tells me he
wouldn’t kill him.

You mentioned “eye for an eye” yet Jesus later contradicted “God”
saying to turn the other cheek. Revenge and violence isn’t the
answer. Eye for an eye is a primitive response, we can surely
do better than that.

As long as there has been “one true god”, there has been killing
in “his” name.

I’ll try one more time on the taking of life issue:
Let’s assume you are married and you walk into your house and find
an intruder raping your wife, You in an effort to defend her from this
end up taking the life of the rapist. This, from a biblical view is a
justifiable killing.
On the other hand, same circumstance only you fail to come home
in time and he kills your wife… This is murder Trevor.

Killing in the name of God?? I wouldn’t go there. The taking of another
life should always be tempered by the idea that, if not for his payment for
my sin, I would be guilty before him as well.

You claim to stick to logic and your objectivity, but you then you hint at
gray areas. On one hand you say killing is wrong and the work of the
devil, then on the other you say well it’s not always wrong if it’s justified.
Which is it? You know my stance, and from your lack of conviction, you
just further prove my point. In your bible, God killed far more people
than Satan ever did. Does this make God bad? Were these all justified?
Am I then justified by killing in the name of God?

you aren’t serious about animals and vegetables are you? Come on now, you have
been refuting the bibles legitimacy as if you were a real student of it… You
certainly know then that God does not condemn the eating of meat and clearly
provided animals and plants for our sustenance. It would be profitable for you to at
least have a general understanding of the Judeo-Christian doctrine to put forth a
viable critique.

For the sake of good discussion let’s keep it real, shall we?

To you it is very black and white, correct? Using your logic, killing is wrong.
No matter what form or reason, you think it is always wrong.
May I ask then, how do you feed yourself? Do you not eat meat because
killing animals is wrong? Do you not eat vegetables because they are
living and must be killed for your consumption?

However, I do think you missed the point I am trying to make. I will try to keep my thoughts
as simplistic as possible.

You as well as Deepak and others who post on this site represent truth as a matter of ones
own life experience, or reality, inner self, etc…. On the other hand you seem to be able to
make certain judgments. Deepak, above makes this statement, “what you end up with is
different religions fighting with other religions, each certain that the other is evil and they
aren’t”. His argument here is that none of us can make determinations as to what is right
and what is wrong, what is “evil” and what is “good”. If you think deeply and logically about
this you start to realize a problem…. One person or groups justification in say, committing
mass murder as happened in Nazi Germany, leaves us no objective standard in which to
condemn it. You are literally left with no definition or differentiation between a “good” act,
and an”evil” one.
I cannot accept this logical conclusion and instead hold to the existence of an objective
truth by which one can make absolute judgments as to what is good and what is evil.
I realize also that to hold to this premise, one must accept that this objective standard
has an author, and this author is also He who has created you in His image. And
because of that you recognize what “love” is!

Please allow me to respond to your question: ‘How do I know I am a lover of good and not
evil?’.

As far as my experience goes: no one can ever know this because good and evil are
both existing in every one and are two parts of the same coin.

If I am able to acknowledge this contrast in myself and deeply accept it I am able
to experience something like transcending this contradiction and becoming ‘neutral’
to both of the words. Becoming neutral means the same as becoming the
observer in oneself.

Moreover if I know myself deeply inside I can understand the other one who has that
same contradiction in him/herself, only perhaps expresses it differently.

The only way I am able to practice this in daily life is to love myself unconditionally and
radiate this unconditional feeling towards the other. It makes me very vulnerabe but
up till now it seems to work in my life and in my surroundings.

To me slowly but surely the word love has become: a list of virtually everything.
The only way one is able to experience in life is through contrast and it gives
us the learning curve of trying to transcend a contradiction.

Therefore there are so many contradictions. What is beautiful to one, is ugly to the other.
It does not matter; what matters is that I can live with both, can be neutral about it as far
as someone else is concerned and can find the beauty of it in my own life anyway.

If one is aware of contradictions and one is able to transcend them in ones own life, one
is also able to recognize the same struggle in the other.

Life is a process, as Deepak has already explained. In my humble view it takes a whole
lifetime for one to grow from the survival of the fittest to the survival of the wisest.

Me, am 63 now, and am slowly growing towards the latter. I had a wonderful insight into
the contradictions in life when I was 34, yet it took quite some learning experiences in
the process to arrive at where I am now.

And where I am now is in my heart. In my heart resides love as the essence. I believe
there is an essential quality in every human being that cannot be hurt. That is truly neutral.
And to me this means Love from the heart, from the middle from where everything
sprouts forth.

Love, from the heart

If one accepts these precepts, than there is no objective definition to be applied to
“good” and “evil”. I submit that the result of this can be used to explain the condition
of the world and the human condition since recorded history. Why would one not
conclude then that it is this widely held view of reality that can be used to explain the
war and subsequent human suferring that we have experienced in this world.

I would propose that the logical solution would be for everyone to identify an objective
standard which would define “good and “evil”.

Otherwise, we might as well “put up and shut up”.

http://www.intentblog.com/archives/2006/01/satan_leaves_th.html

I still believe your mantra ‘namasté’ is the best you have ever given Deepak:

I honour the divine in you as I honour it in myself.

By doing so one is able to always listen to another and replace oneself into the other.

I believe we all are speaking the same truth, yet can perceive it in so many different ways.
Perhaps no need to (word)fight about it at all if we just could live and let live, every One i
his/her own divine dignity.

Love from the heart,

Mieke